tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35215770.post7080275031410916014..comments2023-09-11T19:56:03.229-07:00Comments on Think Or Be Eaten: Zealotry Is Not ReligiousAnghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02385030071978985956noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35215770.post-25558274165622754812009-06-22T03:18:10.339-07:002009-06-22T03:18:10.339-07:00Dean,
I need to ask if you'd be okay with me ...Dean,<br /><br />I need to ask if you'd be okay with me answering your comment via a regular post, because my answer is four times longer than this comment area allows. Your questions are valid and important and I'm glad you're putting them out there. My response is ready but I won't drag you onto the "front page" just assuming you'd be comfortable with that. <br /><br />If you're not okay with that, I could go to plan B, break it into 4 parts and post it here. It would be really really long though. If you can think of another way to go, or if either of these work for you, let me know and I'll go that route.<br /><br />AngAnghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02385030071978985956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35215770.post-77960620880832838112009-06-21T14:48:37.055-07:002009-06-21T14:48:37.055-07:00Ok, I don't have a lot of time at the moment, ...Ok, I don't have a lot of time at the moment, I do apologise, but I'll say a few things - <br /><br />You still simply sound like the typical self-contradictory post-modernist. <br /><br />I said ""You know very well the WRONG things that can happen when someone "believes in themselves and their own opinions.""<br /><br />You find that hilarious? There are people who believe, for example, that there is no afterlife, no objective right and wrong, or that man (or a certain segment of man)is just an animal, therefore it's okay to rape people, or even rise to the ranks of a national leader and kill millions, EXACTLY because they believe in themselves and their opinions. That is not hilarious. That is WRONG. <br /><br />If a person (or a group) like that is looking only internally for a standard of right and wrong (Which you seem to suggest doing) horrible and WRONG things can ensue. History shows this over and over again. <br /><br />In light of this, true right and wrong must come externally from a higher authority by DEFINITION.<br /><br />You said "It requires thinking to decide that you can't trust your own critical thinking because it's too dangerous, but you can trust someone else to do your thinking for you. But why should they trust their thinking if you can't trust yours? Why should you trust anyone's thinking if you can't trust yours? How can you even tell whose thinking is worth following or listening to if you can't trust your own thinking to figure that much out in the first place? This line of belief is rife with contradiction, and that's a fact."<br />I don't know if you'll understand this - but what if I'm not adopting anyone's 'thinking' at all (even my own) but instead living in (or dare I say brought into) conformity with an objective truth? <br />Your statment then boils down to the old postmodern refrain that nobody can truly be sure of anything. Which is of course an absolute statement.<br /><br />You said "...Don't know what that's about, but if you want to clue me in I'd be willing to hear why you think it's inherently too dangerous for people to use their own heads." <br /><br />Well, it depends. Thinking has value, yes, and I have nothing against good judgement, but the issue is - what will be the premise and foundation for that good judgement? One's own "best guess"? One's own desire to have something? Whatever a group, at a certain moment, decides is the "greater good"? <br /><br />*This one I would especially be interested in a response to - <br /><br />"I don't need to be coerced to be moral, and I don't need anyone to define my morality or to dictate my values to me."<br /><br />Give me a break, would you accept this statement out of a child molester? It's insane. Basically anybody can do anything and justify it by this line of thought. This is where you would truly get "right and wrong are arbitrary"<br /><br />Don't you see the inherrent contradiction of saying that it's wrong for someone to tell others what is right and wrong?<br /><br />"We have to respect other people's opinions, and ours should be respected by others, this is plain old every day getting along with others, and that's a necessity. Simple stuff." What if someone has an opinion that says your statement is total garbage? Would you respect that? Respect opinions, no matter what the opinion? Do you respect child molesters opinions when they say their act is natural and justified? Do you "get along" with them, or do you seek to imprison them?<br /><br />"What makes opinions truth?"<br />Well, they're two different things by definition. If something is true, it's not an opinion, it's the truth. Am I wrong? "When the opinions are about the self, they reflect personal truth." Oh really?, Now does that apply to everybody else then or is that just your opinion?Deannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35215770.post-62689142811144387282009-05-18T04:41:00.000-07:002009-05-18T04:41:00.000-07:00Dean,
"Everyone should believe in themselves and ...Dean,<br /><br />"Everyone should believe in themselves and their own opinions". There is nothing contradictory in this, so I don't know what your question is.<br /><br />There's a big difference between opinions and facts, which I've written about at some length within these pages. Facts are facts and like you say, opinions don't change facts. <br /><br />The point is to know yourself *and* to know facts. These things are not in conflict. We live surrounded by facts our whole lives. We'll have opinions about those facts and for us, our opinions define how we perceive the world and live in it. <br /><br />We have to respect other people's opinions, and ours should be respected by others, this is plain old every day getting along with others, and that's a necessity. Simple stuff.<br /><br />What makes opinions truth? When the opinions are about the self, they reflect personal truth. If we project our opinions onto others, it doesn't make them into reality. It reflects a personal opinion but not an external truth. Didn't I just post a honkin' piece on exactly this?? I could swear I just did that.<br /><br />I have covered all of your questions and points in these hundred + posts I've written so I don't think you've read enough here to be able to get the big picture I'm drawing for people to consider for themselves. I hope you'll keep reading some more because I think it's worth your time and whether or not you ultimately agree, if you at least understand my perspective you can compare yours to mine and decide what you think. <br /><br />I don't mean to laugh but you wrote, "You know very well the WRONG things that can happen when someone "believes in themselves and their own opinions." <br /><br />I'm sorry but that's hilarious. <br />I can't go with you on that one, I sure don't know what you're referring to. It sounds like it's something very scary to you. Don't know what that's about, but if you want to clue me in I'd be willing to hear why you think it's inherently too dangerous for people to use their own heads. That's kind of weird Dean. Thinking is pretty much required.<br /><br />It requires thinking to decide that you can't trust your own critical thinking because it's too dangerous, but you can trust someone else to do your thinking for you. But why should they trust their thinking if you can't trust yours? Why should you trust anyone's thinking if you can't trust yours? How can you even tell whose thinking is worth following or listening to if you can't trust your own thinking to figure that much out in the first place? This line of belief is rife with contradiction, and that's a fact.<br /><br />Why do you think right and wrong are to be determined by some larger than life "authority" of right and wrong? According to that, right and wrong are arbitrary and to be made up based on unknown criteria. I would say, honestly, if someone doesn't know right from wrong, they've failed to develop into functional adults. Right and wrong are not hard to figure out. If you had no access to your external authority of right and wrong, you'd have to figure it out yourself. And you would do that. It's just not that hard. <br /><br />But to just say, oh, without an authorized giver of my right and wrong available, I am free to live as though no such things as morality and ethics exist; that scares me. I assure you they exist, and they did WAY before the first churches came on the scene. Churches don't own morality. Churches didn't invent morality. Morality is about people, not religion. You don't need religion to be moral, and you don't have to be moral to be religious. They're not the same thing.<br /><br />Right and wrong are real things. It requires moral and ethical interactions with others. That has to come from you, not from your giver of parameters. I don't need to be coerced to be moral, and I don't need anyone to define my morality or to dictate my values to me. That's my job. That's why I get up in the morning.<br /><br />As to recruiting, what do you think I'm recruiting for? There's no group or membership thing. Nothing to sign up for. Nothing to follow. I'm not even sure I "influence" people per se, I offer other perspectives for consideration, but don't demand loyalty or require people be or do anything to suit me. <br /><br />The things I write are not at all in conflict with Christian belief. It's not an either/or thing, nor do these things conflict at the spiritual level. But no, I don't preach fundamental Christianity, that's political doctrine that changes a great deal from decade to decade. Much of it currently flies in the face of what's in the bible. This is why you have to think for yourself and figure out your own religion privately and with a lot of hard work or you're just a wind up toy. I'm being a bit harsh maybe, but that's my honest take. I'm not trying to be offensive but it creeps me out when people swallow anything and live in total blindness because they're told being blind and not thinking makes them good. Sure it does. Not.<br /><br />You have to let people live their own lives because it's not your job to dictate anything to anyone else. You can offer your information and insights, but you don't have some kind of strange right to aggressively interfere with other people's choices on the grounds of you being so "loving". Did they ask you to be "loving" and come dictate their lives for them? Were you elected to this job by them? Do they desire your "loving" attention? Pearls before swine is one way to look at it, the church's way, and mind your own business is another way to see it. There are many ways to see it. <br /><br />Really loving people means respecting them and being supportive even when you think they'd be better off doing things your way but they don't want to do things your way. If you actually love them, you'll love them anyway, not just when they want to change themselves as *you* see fit. That's not love, that's something else. Love is not requiring others to be what YOU think they should be. Love is loving someone as they are. I don't know if you can understand what I'm even saying here so I'll stop at this point. Keep reading. There's a lot here that's hard for folks to wrap their brains around initially only because it's never been put to them from any other perspectives than the ones they've been given. <br /><br />I'm not the inventor of anything I talk about. I'm a reporter, an observer, an analyst. A regular person. I just call it like I see it. <br /><br />I think you missed the point of the piece by the way, because in the end, I said there's a need for religion. I don't think religion is wrong, I think people get very wrong ideas about religion and end up telling themselves that because they believe in God they can excuse themselves from moral, decent behavior. I know Christ never preached that. I know that's not in the bible. There's doing it right and there's doing it wrong. I only have a problem when it's done wrong because a lot of people end up dead. A lot of hate and bigotry start flying around and the hypocrisy is suffocating and disgusting. I get sick of it and sick of people doing nasty things in God's name. When it's done right people treat each other with respect and tolerance and compassion. That is in the bible. If you don't think for yourself, you could never figure out that you're being manipulated and being turned into the opposite of what Christ wanted and talked about. Christians never seem to remember that the devil hangs out in church. Where else would he hang out? With the atheists?<br /><br />AngAnghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02385030071978985956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35215770.post-7894758934395925972009-05-18T01:01:00.000-07:002009-05-18T01:01:00.000-07:00I'm a little unclear on something. Bear with me......I'm a little unclear on something. Bear with me...<br /><br />There seems to be a common thread throughout your writings...<br />You said above that "Everyone should believe in themselves and their own opinions."<br /><br />Now, isn't that a self contradictory statement? Is it your opinion or is it a truth? Does that statement apply to me if I don't share that opinion? You see what I'm getting at? <br /><br />This just sounds like confused old postmodernism to me.<br /><br />Besides, what about things that are not opinion? When ones death comes for example, either one or another certain outcome will happen. Nobody's opinion, (not even yours) changes that. <br /><br />Furthermore, what exactly makes people "themselves" and their "own opinions" something they should follow? <br /><br />You know very well the WRONG things that can happen when someone "believes in themselves and their own opinions." <br /><br />Otherwise, if there is no outside authority that an individual has to be accountable to, then there is no actual right or wrong and it doesn't matter if people are enslaved anyway...<br /><br />Right?<br /><br />Now, as far as - not my term, but we'll go with it - 'recruiting' - if I believe my worldview to be the right one, how loving would I be to just sit and watch others continue going down a path I believe is going to be dangerous and harmful to them? Wouldn't I rather attempt to maturely persuade them of the way to go and the things to avoid? Is this not the same thing you're attempting to do with this blog?Deannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35215770.post-588256513199148422009-03-13T17:44:00.000-07:002009-03-13T17:44:00.000-07:00Ang, I read this a while ago but got too busy to r...Ang, I read this a while ago but got too busy to respond. An emotional subject for all people including Catholics.<BR/>Personally I was once a die-hard Baptist fundamentalist and started asking questions that should not be asked. Funny that I've been thinking along the same thoughts as your post lately.<BR/>We have some very..."holy" people in the church around here, one will not let his 28 year old daughter remarry again because...its forbidden. Or so he says in his wise fundamentalist viewpoint.<BR/>What this idiot will have is a future daughter that finds a guy she is madly in love with again and either <BR/>A) Accept him and her and admit that his perceptions of God might be off or<BR/>B) Ostracize either both outright or worse<BR/>C) Pretend to accept but find many of the abundant reasons in his daughter's new love that will reinforce his own belief system while simultaneously helping to destroy their evil marriage.<BR/><BR/>I've come to realize that the *sincerity* and *faith* of believers is only that they have courage and conviction. It does not prove their convictions are built upon truth.<BR/><BR/>Anotherwords, one can be sincerely, courageously...wrong.Kevenjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04527702723486597969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35215770.post-88263870687566309332009-03-08T15:38:00.000-07:002009-03-08T15:38:00.000-07:00As you know I love - yes that is the word - your b...As you know I love - yes that is the word - your blogs, Ang. But, somehow I could not get into this one, flow with it. The word "zealot" jarred with me, for instance. I didn't feel carried on a wave, as I always have done.<BR/><BR/>But this is no criticism of your thoughts.<BR/><BR/>Just about my perception.<BR/><BR/>Keep on,<BR/>DelborAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35215770.post-60286117489557665722009-03-04T14:37:00.000-08:002009-03-04T14:37:00.000-08:00I realize this might be cynical but god isn't Amer...I realize this might be cynical but god isn't American or Republican and doesn't care who wins a football game. You want to waste your time praying to some invisible man in the sky, go ahead. But do it on your own time; don't shove it down my throat. As for what Thomas has to say: I once had an affair with a married woman who was Catholic. When I asked her if cheating was a sin, she asked if I believe in God. I said no and she said, "What do I care, you're the one going to hell."<BR/>Now that's Catholicism!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35215770.post-625262380518769482009-03-03T17:24:00.000-08:002009-03-03T17:24:00.000-08:00Maitreya,I couldn't agree more. You've hit on a v...Maitreya,<BR/><BR/>I couldn't agree more. You've hit on a very important point which is that religion is private and personal. Arguing or killing over belief is bizarre in the extreme. The misguided team spirit mentality is the opposite of what spiritual belief is for or about. It says a lot about how badly corrupted religious leadership has become in this country when people don't even understand the personal nature, point or purpose of their chosen beliefs.<BR/><BR/>AngAnghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02385030071978985956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35215770.post-57110576106741730802009-03-03T17:16:00.000-08:002009-03-03T17:16:00.000-08:00I've always thought that the greatest tragedy of h...I've always thought that the greatest tragedy of humankind is how much blood has been spilled in the name of a god of LOVE.<BR/>I think all religions are trying to describe the same experience of God. But since God by it's very nature defies words, we wind up killing each other over words. And that makes sense how?<BR/>Do unto others as you would have done to you. That is all people need to live by. If you believe the almighty carrot god is coming from another planet to save you, that's fine. Just don't impose that crap on me. I have very little respect for religions that 'recruit' members. My beliefs are my own. That is always how it should be, as long as no one is hurting anyone else.Maitreyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00905210677201681381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35215770.post-43600609919165381732009-03-03T16:55:00.000-08:002009-03-03T16:55:00.000-08:00Thomas,I do believe in myself and my own opinion. ...Thomas,<BR/><BR/>I do believe in myself and my own opinion. Everyone should believe in themselves and their own opinions. You say that like there's something wrong with it. <BR/><BR/>I don't know what you got out of this piece but my own spiritual beliefs were not the topic. <BR/><BR/>I know enough about Catholicism and Buddhism to have opinions about them, and I'm entitled to my opinions. I'm sorry if you don't happen to like them but it doesn't change what I think or what my own personal experience has taught me. They are what they are. I do think you missed the point of the piece. Thank you for your comment.<BR/><BR/>AngAnghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02385030071978985956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35215770.post-84565880663163029062009-03-03T16:44:00.000-08:002009-03-03T16:44:00.000-08:00You are so out of touch with Catholicism, and espe...You are so out of touch with Catholicism, and especially this Pope, it is laughable. My bet is he knows far more about Buddhism than you do about Catholicism. By the way, what DO you believe in beyond yourself and your own opinion? All I got was what you do NOT believe in.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06176662473313999355noreply@blogger.com